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Post by mase on Jan 28, 2020 10:59:40 GMT
Finally, it's time to talk a little about the interaction between the player and gang members. First of all, the main categories: - Defense Force: This is the defending force of every town. The player can update it for every individual town. - Attack Force: The attack force, which is used when the player attacks an enemy town. - Player Support: A small troop of "elite" on-foot gang members that stick around the player during any kind of battle. Gang Cars vs. on-foot troops: - Both the attack and defense forces will be based on cars rather than on-foot troops, however once gang cars are near the enemy, or in bad shape, they release on-foot troops (one time only). The number of gang members spawned by a car depends on its size. For every car model the player can pick there will be differently equipped versions, i.e. a choice of weapons that members will carry. - The player support force will be made up of a handful of customizable on-foot members. Limitations: For obvious reasons, there need to be limitations to the size of attack and defense forces, otherwise the game might start to lag or even crash. I've been thinking that perhaps we should have a max capacity limit. The player could then choose various gang cars until s/he reaches this limit. The capacity requirements of a car depends on its size. Controls: Important: Since this game is not an RTS game, we want to keep the controls simple / minimalistic. The player should not have a million control features. Following are my initial ideas for gang member controls. - Defense / Attack force modes: -- Follow Me: Units follow the player, but still retaliate when attacked. When player switches to "Follow Me" mode, units will only comply when not engaged in combat. -- Open Fire: Units search for targets and engage. - Player Support Force modes: -- Follow Me: same as above. -- Stay: Units stay where they are but still retaliate. Additional thoughts: - The player can make gang members in a town follow and support him/her, they do not ride along if player enters car though. - Player support benefits from offensive / defensive skill levels. - The player taunting feature somehow boosts nearby gang members (possibly health boost or damage immunity). Let me know what you think.
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Post by three3pryme on Jan 28, 2020 19:55:27 GMT
Interesting... Maybe some of the "Player Support" members can be characters that are unlocked over time which ties into the main story? Just a suggestion. What happens if a player controlled town gets attacked and some of the defense members die? Will it be like Space Borders CM where as long as the player wins the quantity of defenders will remain unaffected? Or if members die/assets destroyed or stolen during an attack on a player owned town, the player will have to replace them via Re-purchasing them or missions or however they are acquired? My only concern is how the AI, especially the "support members" would interact when a player gets into a vehicle, especially an air vehicle, and goes away from them. How would the AI compensate if they are following the player and the player gets into a jet and flies 5 miles away? Questions: I know this sounds like a heavy and super advanced request, and could potentially be overcomplicated or problematic, but during an attack or defense, could there could be a seperate screen where the player could command certain groups of attackers/defenders to go to certain areas where enemies are? or at the simplest, assign patrol routes/group behavior of some sort? My last question is, what role will the police play during thug wars? I'm not trying to sound negative but currently, thug wars sounds a bit anarchic at the moment with no mention of police. Otherwise I really like the sound of this system and honestly cant wait to test! Keep up the good work!
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Post by mase on Jan 29, 2020 8:48:07 GMT
Thanks for the great input! That's a pretty cool idea. Good point and it's something we should totally discuss. I think there should be losses of some kind, but definitely not 1:1. It would punish the player for the AI's suicidal behavior. How about instead more houses within the town fall under enemy control. If you remember, I mentioned that individual houses within towns will have to be liberated and protected on an individual level (they generate protection money if liberated). Perhaps the penalty for great losses could be occupation of some of theses houses by the attacker. Well that's why originally the support members were meant to be available only during Thug Wars. They would not walk around with you when roaming or in a mission etc. However like I mentioned, the player can get support from other gang members within a town. If you switch vehicles, they simply stop following you. My only concern is that allowing the player to have other members following all the time it might lead to other issues as well, e.g. might interfere with some of the missions. Let's leave this topic open for discussion though. I know where you're coming from, having tactical control over your units is something that I like myself. My main concern here is complexity. I think a lot of people were turned off by Space Borders, because they find the game to be too complicated (especially those coming from a mobile gaming platform background). This time I want to focus more on ease of use and on a minimal feature set. Perhaps we could add binoculars that could be used to set a destination for your troops, but as soon as grouping comes into play it's gonna be far too complicated already. Remember, it's not an RTS game and it's on a platform where users expect the tap of one button to do magic. The police does what it does in real-life (well mostly). You break the law (weapons, speeding, stealing etc.) the police chase you down. Over time, if you've committed lots of crimes, your reputation with the police declines and you become a target by default. To redeem yourself you'll have to do jobs for the police. Thanks a lot. Much appreciated!
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Post by Clinkzbone on Jan 30, 2020 10:54:28 GMT
I like the idea of houses being captured by the enemy.
You replied that the police will act like in real life in that they'll try and catch you if you commit crime, but that doesn't really answer the question of what they would do during a gang war. Would they actively participate, or bunker down and defend the station, etc.
Also, I was thinking about the complexity issue and got an idea. How about using the system from Pikmin? Give the player a "follow me" command that makes allies in a small radius follow the player, and have another command that is simply "go there". That allows for grouping without needing to do actual clumsy unit selection or drawing of any boxes, while still slowing for a decent degree of control. Also, to limit cheese, have gang members be unable to leave the town they originated from, and not appear in missions without combat.
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Post by mase on Jan 30, 2020 11:38:23 GMT
Oops, yes that's true. During Thug Wars the police doesn't get involved at all. You may have noticed that already in the current implementation. They actually vanish and so do most civilian cars.
That is a pretty neat idea. The "follow me" part is straight forward, but what about "go there"? Would that require the player to detach the camera, move it to the destination then tap the "go there" button, or would it be more like a "stay here" command that requires the player to take them somewhere first?
In both cases, once the members are at their destination, would they seek out new targets (i.e. start moving again at their own will / search and destroy), or would they guard the area? If they only guard the area, would you have to walk over to them, re-select them to give them a new command, or should there be global commands as well (i.e. "all attack at will" / "all follow me")?
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Post by three3pryme on Jan 30, 2020 19:46:04 GMT
I also like the idea of houses being captured by rival gangs. But I have a couple of questions! 1. You mentioned earlier that houses not under your control would not generate additional revenue which is fine, but I feel like there should be an additional punishment to the player, perhaps the enemy somehow gets stronger, or your forces get weaker during when you have to defend the city? Or maybe something else where the player is slightly worse off during a defense. This could incentivize a bit more travel, and force the player to pay a bit more attention to their holdings in the cities they control. 2. Will the player be able to head to rival cities and capture houses (via missions or however) to steal income or gain benefits from a rival city? Could these houses then come under attack if they discover them? I also agree with Clinkzbone about the the "follow me" command, but maybe instead of a "go there" command, there can be a simple "disperse" command where units following you simply just stop following the player and walk away. Therefore the player doesnt need to detatch the camera or do anything complicated and you wouldn't have to add a seperate button or anything like that. As for their behavior after the command is issued, I'm unsure about what it would be but maybe if they were patrolling before, they could go back to their patrol route, and if they were guarding something, they could be programmed to just go back there and resume guarding whatever it was they were protecting.
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Post by Clinkzbone on Jan 31, 2020 10:24:53 GMT
Disperse instead of go there could work but I kinda feel like that would give much less control.
Also for go there I was thinking why not keep with the Pikmin inspiration. They could go in the direction the player is facing until the edge of the screen. Once there, they attack anything nearby, or if there's nothing to attack, they just stand there until called to follow again or they despawn. Also, they should be leashed in a small area so they don't wander away.
I do think there is value in a disperse command though, something to reset them to their default state.
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Post by mase on Feb 1, 2020 15:51:07 GMT
Sure, sounds like a decent idea. Luckily details like these can be added at a later stage. I think that maybe we should have a list somewhere that can be edited with all the feature ideas. I think we started something similar for Space Borders, but it never really worked out, probably because I ceased working on the game. Anyway, we really need a list like that for this game.
Unless we implement something similar to what you describe in 1), I don't think this would be worth it that much.
Initially I was going to implement what you have suggested, however, today I experimented with gang member control a little (see video) and to me it felt like I wanted the gang members surrounding me most of the time. Since there are going to be stationary groups during town takeovers, I can see how being able to send members to specific places might be useful though.
In the video you can see my gang members staying in front of my character, which is similar to what you'd achieve if you send them to the edge of the screen, but without the hassle of having to re-select them over and over. How about having a formation button instead with box, circle, triangle arrangement modes etc, which can include leading and following positions?
Maybe we can add a goto button to the overview mode, if you want more advanced controls and don't mind the extra complexity. It would release your current selection and send them to a specific location.
Also, here is how the selection button would work (is that simple enough?): - If there are selectable gang members around, add them to your current selection. - If not, release your current selection. In this case all gang members that you had previously selected will stay where they are and retaliate or attack nearby targets. The button would show if it's in an "add" or "release" state with plus / minus symbols.
Further, I'm happy to share with you the fact, that gang members of any faction automatically form groups with a leader when they are "single", making them more effective.
Regarding gang cars I also have some news. They will not be part of your main force, but rather they will play a supportive role. I found that a cars poor mobility (ability to turn and maneuver in general), makes it a clumsy contributor to unit formations, instead it'll serve as a fast supplier of new troops and as additional cannon fodder during combat. I'm not sure though whether the player should have control over when s\he receives the "car support", or whether it should be auto-generated every x minutes, until all of them are used up. Any ideas?
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Post by mase on Feb 1, 2020 21:01:22 GMT
I realized that my original response was too unspecific. I meant that having this feature would be a lot more effective if the player could weaken the rival city (just like you mentioned the enemy could do to player controlled cities) by capturing houses before attempting a takeover. If it's just about making extra income, it would probably not be worth it that much, because the rival gang would recapture the houses pretty fast and you'd have to go back there all the time to re-recapture them again. Just wanted to clarify what I meant.
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Post by three3pryme on Feb 1, 2020 21:09:16 GMT
I realized that my original response was too unspecific. I meant that having this feature would be a lot more effective if the player could weaken the rival city (just like you mentioned the enemy could do to player controlled cities) by capturing houses before attempting a takeover. If it's just about making extra income, it would probably not be worth it that much, because the rival gang would recapture the houses pretty fast and you'd have to go back there all the time to re-recapture them again. Just wanted to clarify what I meant. I really only thought about the idea where players could attack enemy houses just because I feel it would be more engaging and fair if you could reciprocate an action that an enemy does to you in a setting such as Thug wars. I'm unsure how it would play out in practice though. You are probably right about adding a sort of "to-do" list so that everything doesn't get cluttered on the forums. I do have a good amount of suggestions but I've been trying to save them for when its appropriate to mention them. (not that I want to overwhelm you with ideas )
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Post by mase on Feb 2, 2020 11:24:13 GMT
Been working a little bit on formations. Added the "Circle" formation. I intend to add "Wedge", "Leading semi-circle". "Following semi-circle". Any suggestions?
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